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The_Wanderer
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Joined: 02 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: Vipissana meditation sign-object? |
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So I have read the book "Mindfulness in Plain English" Several times. I am reading it again, as I gain new insights and refresh waning practices each time I do. The one thing that stumps me however, and that I do not understand is the reference to the meditation sign. According to the book, following your breath along your nostril tips, will eventually bring about a mental sign that varies from person to person.
I have been practicing for a year now, and I have yet to experience this, and I wonder how this is achieved without subconsciously forcing your mind to see an object? Has anyone experienced this, and can explain better? I love this book however, I feel this is the one topic in the book that is not explained well.
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rudyh01
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Good question, no idea! 
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The_Wanderer
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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No problem Rudy 
I am planning on researching this topic further in the next few days. If I find something I will definitely post it here.
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rudyh01
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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I finally found something at http://www.usamyanmar.net/Buddha/Article/Samatha%20and%20Vipassana%20by%20Monk%20Mon%20Htaung%20Myay%20Zin%20Tawya.pdf see page 4.
| Quote: | I like to explain to some who are not familiar with the Pali terms. In the meditation practice, one will experiences several stages known as Nimitta or sign.
Bhāvanā-nimitta (Meditation Image)
Nimitta means mark, sign, image, target, object, etc. Here it refers to the mental image obtained in meditation. Three types of nimitta are to be noted.
1 Parikamma-nimitta preparatory image It is the object of parikamma-bhāvanā. It is the object perceived at the early stages of meditations.
2 Uggaha-nimitta acquired images As the meditation proceeds, the meditator finds that he can see the object, e.g. kasina, without looking at it directly. He has acquired the image in his mind, and he can see it with eyes closed. The acquired image is still unsteady and unclear; it arises when the mind has reached a weak degree of concentration.
3 Patibhāga-nimitta counter image As the meditation proceeds on, at the point when the concentration reaches upacāra-samādhi, the acquired image suddenly changes into a bright, clear and steady image. It is similar to the original object, but it is many times brighter and clearer than the acquired image. It is entirely free from faults such as unevenness, graininess, etc., that may be present in the original object. It is immovable as if it remains fixed in the eye. As soon as this image arises, the stage of upacāra-bhāvanā and neighborhood concentration is reached |
So in short, it seems to refer to the mental image we create of an object we focus on. The word 'sign' is definitely vague...
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The_Wanderer
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Rudy!
That does seem to give some insight into this. It is strange however, that the focus of the book and Vipissana meditation seems to be focusing on the Breath at the tip of the nose, and only very few references to the sign.
For me when I meditate and I reach that 'settled concentration and awareness' place, I seem to always been in a space like environment, where I am just simply open and free to view my thoughts as if they were floating around me.
I wonder if there are any Vipissana masters in the United States  . Or perhaps when I finally decide to take a vacation, I will know where to go finally
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Compassion First
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Joined: 16 Apr 2006
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Location: Near Hazleton, PA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Wanderer-La....LOL,
In reference to what Rudy-La wrote....
| Quote: |
I like to explain to some who are not familiar with the Pali terms. In the meditation practice, one will experiences several stages known as Nimitta or sign.
Bhāvanā-nimitta (Meditation Image)
Nimitta means mark, sign, image, target, object, etc. Here it refers to the mental image obtained in meditation. Three types of nimitta are to be noted.
1 Parikamma-nimitta preparatory image It is the object of parikamma-bhāvanā. It is the object perceived at the early stages of meditations.
2 Uggaha-nimitta acquired images As the meditation proceeds, the meditator finds that he can see the object, e.g. kasina, without looking at it directly. He has acquired the image in his mind, and he can see it with eyes closed. The acquired image is still unsteady and unclear; it arises when the mind has reached a weak degree of concentration.
3 Patibhāga-nimitta counter image As the meditation proceeds on, at the point when the concentration reaches upacāra-samādhi, the acquired image suddenly changes into a bright, clear and steady image. It is similar to the original object, but it is many times brighter and clearer than the acquired image. It is entirely free from faults such as unevenness, graininess, etc., that may be present in the original object. It is immovable as if it remains fixed in the eye. As soon as this image arises, the stage of upacāra-bhāvanā and neighborhood concentration is reached
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In this "first stage", in Vipassana, Parikamma-nimitta, we are concentrating on the breathing (for hours, days, weeks, months.....) until this sign appears.... It is not entirely dissimilar to the "disc shaped Buddha Images" that one hears tell of in, say, various meditations within the Vajrayana practices... It is not required to look at the tip of the nose, or to even have the eyes open, but, as many meditators have mentioned, when the eyes are completely closed, they can become distracted by the retinal "light-show" that can occur at times.....
However, in the second two stages, the object is a real object... Perhaps a statue of the Buddha, or, perhaps even just a simple stone, or what have you.... One becomes able to see the object with the eyes closed, in the second stage.... "in its appropriate surroundings" generally speaking.
In the third stage, however, the real object becomes highly luminescent with the eyes closed, and actually eclipses its surroundings with its brightness (generally speaking)....
Vipassana is not a "strictly" Theravada practice, although it is not common among most Mahayana sects...(there are a few)....
In short, however, it is a defacto state of Samadhi.....and needs be respected as such....
Be Kind,
--Tom
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Tamara
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Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 618
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Total off-topic:
Compassion First, you are back ???
Nice to hear from you again !
Tamara
(As always under restricted circumstances, since moths no electricityfor 14 hours per day in this lovely country here.
Monday a leopard was killed ten minutes from our house, entered the city from the mountain north of Kathmandu etc. etc.) |
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Compassion First
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Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 2127
Location: Near Hazleton, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Tamara-La,
(Continuing the off-topic...LOL)
I am back until I judge myself to have misbehaved again......LOL
I am happy you can still join us here, but am horribly saddened by the continued worsening conditions in Nepal.......
Any sign of improvement on the horizon??
Be Kind, and Namaste,
--Tom
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If I do not go to Hell to help them, who will? -- Ksitigarbha |
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